2006-01-30 [Po]: *was wondering if perhaps a 'finished contests' wiki might not be in order*?

2006-01-30 [Mister Saint]: Do you think so? Maybe make a poll about it?

2006-01-30 [Po]: sure. Polls are good, but I think for organizations' sake, since we're planning to keep flipside around a while, it would be a good thing. :D

2006-01-30 [Po]: 'it' being a 'finished contests' wiki. lol

2006-01-30 [Mister Saint]: well, okely. Wanna set it up, or should I?

2006-01-30 [Po]: I'll let you do it. I'm not feeling too administrative tonight. :D

2006-01-30 [Mister Saint]: Heh... okay.

2006-01-30 [Po]: *grins*

2006-02-18 [Mister Saint]: So. What sort of encouragement can we give people to keep entering? In my eyes, the fact that we're all improving as writers is a great reward. But then, I likes me some shtuff too. So... any thoughts?

2006-02-18 [DorianP]: Perhaps something like an image or badge or whatever you call it when you participate in a certain number of contests? Still, people might just submit worthless things just to gain that badge, and I don't know how easy to realize such a thing is, technically.

2006-02-18 [Mister Saint]: Mmm... so far, I think our roster is mature enough to not do that. Even the younger members carry themselves much better than a lot of Elftowners, who've done exactly what you mentioned many times in many places. A badge would be a good idea, but we might have to iron out some criteria for it.

2006-02-18 [DorianP]: I agree. And the criteria will ensure that no one will submit worthless stuff just for the sake of submitting.

2006-02-18 [Mister Saint]: As for your question on the front page... we would certainly message people first, before summarily dismissing them. I will not stand for people being banned from Flipside without plenty of fair warning... to do otherwise would be unjust, tyrannical, and idiotic. ^^ So yes, if the dismissal gets voted in, there will be messages before dismissals. ^^

2006-02-18 [DorianP]: Already voted "no", but I could live with that solution ;)

2006-02-18 [SleepingDragon]: I'm always leary any time these type of control issues come up. My feeling is that people are on the roster because they like what Flipside is about, regardless of whether they are active in contests at the given moment. There are other aspects of Flipside as well; Articles and a column to read, exercises, even just taking part in the banter on the wiki pages. It's all part of being a part of. Myself, I participated in a whole lot of contests right off the bat, then I took some time to enter some other contests on the site, and now I'm into writing another novelette. It might be a while before I enter another contest at Flipside. I don't know. But I still consider myself a member.

2006-02-18 [chuchutrain]: But I think that members shouldn't be limited to the contests, if they are just here for the workshops and the articles that's fine with me, but then they should enter the workshops...somehow have your name somewhere else other than the roster list, I mean, if your name is only on the roster and no where else there really isn't any point...is there?

2006-02-18 [Font]: I agree with SleepingDragon on this one. I too entered contests at the start but now I'm deep into doing my dissertation and have very little time for creative work.

2006-02-18 [RiddleRose]: i agree with chuchutrain... if you're just going to put your name on the roster and then ignore flipside altogether, there really doesn't seem to be much point in entering. but as long as they participate in some way that isn't just going into the comments and typig "hi" every now and then, i would consider them a member... even if they didn't enter contests!

2006-02-18 [Mister Saint]: Certainly. Well, there are lots of things to do that don't involve jumping into contests. Discussions like this one, in fact, could be construed as being active. It isn't as if I'm planning on handing myself the power to ban people without good reason. As far as I'm concerned, banning someone from the wiki isn't going to happen just because I don't like the way a member does things. ^^ At the same time, though, I don't really like dead weight, and if nothing else I think it might help encourage activity. Plus, the timeframes I offered for vote are pretty generous.

2006-02-19 [Kaimee]: Maybe we could have more member's areas on the roster? :) Contest owners, contest participants, flipside supporters.. something like that. Any participant who doesn't participate after some amount of time could simply be shifted to the supporters list, messaged to tell them what's going on, with a list of current/upcoming contests they might be interested in, and that they could re-add themselves to the participants section once they've found a contest they're interested in. That way we aren't kicking members out, we aren't banning anyone, but contest owners can see a reasonably accurate list of the amount of people available to participate in contests at any given time (so they know ..

2006-02-19 [Kaimee]: whether it's worth creating a new one if there's a bit of a dry spell :P) and so they can create new contests specifically geared to the current active participants. Whether or not the 'supporters' list could only consist of active members I don't know, I'd like to think that even inactive ones could hang around on that list. Maybe after awhile if we never saw any input from someone we could message them to find out why and if necessary remove them, but I don't think a supporters list should have as strict a time limit as the participants list.

2006-02-19 [Kaimee]: And even that 'strict' time limit wouldn't be as if we were kicking them out, we're just shifting them to a different members area until they're ready to participate again :) That takes care of people like Moorn or SleepyD, who are definitely worthwhile and active members, but who might take a little nap-time away from the contests ;) Anyhoo, I personally think something like this is a much better approach to the whole thing (once you've thought it all the way through) and maintains the whole relaxed feel around flipside :)

2006-02-19 [Kaimee]: And now, I'll stop talking ;)

2006-02-19 [Mister Saint]: Personally, I stand by the idea of dismissal. But of course, it wouldn't occur until every last consideration was considered, and the member messaged, and all that. Of course, it isn't my choice alone, thash why the poll. ^^ As for the different member sections... well, at first there were three different sections. I eliminated them because I didn't want anyone to be able to claim rank or seniority over anyone else. Now, if the members as a group want sections, by gar, we'll have sections. 

2006-02-19 [Mister Saint]: Oh, what do you folks think about putting the pulls here instead of the main page?

2006-02-19 [Mister Saint]: I have an idea. Since this just seems to be starting static, why don't we just nix the idea of dismissing people at all? We'll just leave it alone. Thoughts?

2006-02-19 [Kaimee]: I really don't think that dismissing people is even really an option right now :P If the separate 'participants' and 'flipside supporters' sections are liked, just go with them. They make more sense than inventing crazy needless bureacratic rules to cover an eventuality that may never happen :P If someone ever joins and goes a couple months and we still haven't seen them, message them, find out if they're still interested. Who says we really need rules about that sort of thing? More likely then not they'll either say that they don't want to be members, or they'll start joining in. I think we should just work with the different sections, and cross the other bridge when we come to it :)

2006-02-19 [Kaimee]: And the different sections aren't like 'ranks', as you've said in your message :/ Just different areas of participation. Contest hosts, contest participants, flipside supporters, flipside writers.. that sort of thing. That way all members who just want to hang around, use the workshop stuff etc.. they can be "supporters" and move themselves to and from the participants section as they have time to participate or not. It's all there in my posts, sorry if they're a bit too long to read ^^;

2006-02-19 [Mister Saint]: Attention all members: the dismissal debate is over. I hope no one minds, but I do not like static and I certainly don't want it to be here, where it's supposed to be a casual attitude. From this point on, dismissal will only be considered based on rule-breaking. Inactivity is no longer a concern, you may be inactive until Doomsday and you get to stay on the list. However, the prerequisite thing is still up in the air. Thanks to everyone who gave their input. If anyone has a problem with my ending this matter, please feel free to message me. Thanks.

2006-02-19 [chuchutrain]: alrighty :D

2006-02-19 [Kaimee]: So are we going with the different members section? :D

2006-02-19 [chuchutrain]: From the sound of it, yes... ^^

2006-02-19 [Mister Saint]: I don't know. Actually... no, I don't think so. If we aren't going to bother with dismissals and inactivity, it's pointless to renew a member section.

2006-02-19 [Po]: Just going to roster in hosts and participants mode then?

2006-02-19 [Mister Saint]: No. Just members. The old rules concerning contest hosting will still apply; meaning that you must have entered a contest before you can host one.

2006-02-19 [Po]: :D As long as I can still have my contest running, whatever works, works. Ya know?

2006-02-19 [chuchutrain]: that reminded me of Final Fantasy VIII for PS

2006-02-19 [Mister Saint]: How so?

2006-02-19 [chuchutrain]: One of the characters always says "ya know." at the end of whatever he said...

2006-02-19 [Mister Saint]: Oh... I can't remember which one. o.o Ish been too long.

2006-02-19 [chuchutrain]: such a good game lol

2006-02-19 [Kaimee]: But I really really liked the idea of the different sections :( Dismissal aside, it makes sense. Sometimes people simply aren't going to have time to participate in contests, and having a separate list that everyone can simply move themselves to or from is much better than a system of writing (inactive) or (not participating in contests right now sorry) or (writing a story, too busy for contests!) that is eventually going to arise, because it always does on members lists like this ;) Plus, as I've already said, that way prospective contest hosts can see what their likely participants base looks like at any given time. It's not even hard to set up :/ Just add the other section and let people

2006-02-19 [Kaimee]: add themselves as they will. I've got quite a bit of experience rceating and maintaining official and non-official wikis on elftownand I've seen a lot of different membership systems. I'm going to use this idea from now on anywhere it'd fit because it'll work well, can't we please use it here too? :)

2006-02-19 [Mister Saint]: Its not necessary with an undivided member list. People have their jobs listed by their names. I see no need to categorize.

2006-02-19 [Kaimee]: But that's what I was talking about. That disorganised tendency to add a note or job beside their name, without the easy divisions :( Can we hold a poll on this idea? :) It's different from your "banning members for not participating" poll obviously, and I really love this idea and I'd be willing to maintain the lists if you don't want to, so can we see what everyone thinks? :D

2006-02-19 [Kaimee]: Oh, and it's a bit hard to write out all the options for the poll in comments (takes up space) but if I just make the poll on this page (we're doing them here from now on aren't we?) you can tell me if you agree with everything? Afterall, we can't forget that you're in charge, you do get final say on things. Hell, if you really don't agree with the results of the poll, what's stopping you from doing what you want anyways? Hehehehe, only joking Moorn dear, we know you care about our opinions ^_^

2006-02-19 [Mister Saint]: We hadn't made a definite decision on where the polls would be put, but here is fine. They kinda uglify the main flipside page. My only concern is that a lot of the members don't watch this page. Go ahead and make it up, if you want. And of course I care about everyone's opinions. You have to forgive me, I'm worn out right now and have been putting up with a lot of crap the last few days. It makes Moorn a bit testy.

2006-02-19 [Mister Saint]: Just remember with your poll that the dismissal concept is squashed, and it'll never happen for any reason aside from repeated and intentional rule-breaking.

2006-02-19 [Kaimee]: That ok Mr? ^_^

2006-02-19 [Mister Saint]: It looks fine to me. Now, remember that not all of us watch the page.

2006-02-19 [Kaimee]: And you've deleted the comment and my reply :/ but you don't have to worry about my blog entry! ^_^ I just posted a link to the poll and the basic info up there, most members will have missed the original posts way back in the pages somewhere now, this way the idea is actually explained :)

2006-02-19 [Mister Saint]: I deleted them because both were far too unhappy for this wiki.

2006-02-19 [SleepingDragon]: I went to bed last night thinking 'too bad it couldn't be turned around into some sort of positive'. I didn't know how but it looks like you guys may have found the way. I like 'supporters' better than some catagory that's title implies something negative. Cheers! :D

2006-02-20 [Po]: Since the idea of a separate 'supporters' section on the Roster seems to be a landslide of an idea, I will update the wiki tomorrow to include it. Hopefully nobody thinks this is jumping the gun at all...

2006-02-20 [Mister Saint]: It looks pretty unanimous to me. ^^

2006-02-20 [chuchutrain]: :D

2006-02-20 [Mister Saint]: Question. If we are going to add supporters sections, then, should the entering a contest as a prerequisite thing be dismissed?

2006-02-20 [chuchutrain]: yeah because then there's no point in having to enter a contest as a prerequisite (god I can't even pronounce that right now...) did this even make sense?

2006-02-20 [Po]: As a requirement for membership in flipside as a supporter, I feel there should be no contest entry prereq. In order to have your name moved over to active participants, I feel that an active, visible role has to be taken. Such as workshop or advice column input, or wiki-building, etc...

2006-02-20 [Mister Saint]: So a prerequisite to getting onto a certain list is to perform some appropriate deed thingy?

2006-02-20 [chuchutrain]: yeah....so there name isn't JUST on the roster...they have some form of participation elsewhere too

2006-02-20 [Po]: *noddles* sounds about right. :D

2006-02-20 [chuchutrain]: alrighty then...well since I am on the verge of not understanding anything you type and also on the verge of going into 'auto pilot' as I like to call it...I'm heading off to bed. P.S auto pilot is when I'm half asleep and tend to type/write/say things that are totally random and don't make sense...^^ good night everyone

2006-02-20 [Mister Saint]: G'night Chuey. 

2006-02-20 [Po]: Nighty Chuey. :D be good! but not too good!

2006-02-21 [DorianP]: I take it that "an active, visible role" includes joining contests? 'Cause then I agree.

2006-02-21 [Mister Saint]: Of course. ^^

2006-02-21 [chuchutrain]: blah c yas

2006-03-04 [chuchutrain]: Note to whoever runs Flipside at the moment: I'm not to sure who to adress this to, but we need a new Featured Contest...and I need to know which one it is so I can get their banner up and going ^^

2006-03-04 [Po]: Heh, that would be me, Chuey. *grins* Sorry about being lax on that one, I haven't been online much lately due to sheer exhaustion and illness within the household. I'll get right on it! :D

2006-03-05 [chuchutrain]: oh that's alright. I just noticed today. ^^

2006-03-13 [Mister Saint]: What would everyone think of doing a feature member every month?

2006-03-13 [Fuzzysabeast]: Sounds good to me Moorn!

2006-03-13 [Kaimee]: I think we'll run out soon :P

2006-03-13 [Mister Saint]: Then we'll recycle. *puts up a poll*

2006-03-13 [*Amy*]: i think it is a marvelous idea. but how would we choose?

2006-03-13 [Mister Saint]: Probably the same way the featured contest has been chosen. A few members simply looked at the list, picked out a meritorious (if that's not already a word, dibs!) entry, and put it up. ^_^ It'll probably be much the same here. It's still casual, so... just looking at participation and conduct primarily. 

2006-03-13 [*Amy*]: Okay, then i'm in:D

2006-03-13 [chuchutrain]: I'm in! :D

2006-03-14 [Font]: This is a great idea, would really help showcase peoples work! 

2006-03-14 [Mister Saint]: Rock. *nods* Now, quick question. Do you suppose we ought to consider a person's writing at the same time, and make it part of the criteria? Say... be more apt to choose someone who has things uploaded to their index than someone who hasn't?

2006-03-14 [chuchutrain]: Thats a good idea and we can put up two links, a personal favorite of the member and then a popular pick from those around Flipside, or something like that.

2006-03-14 [Mister Saint]: That's a great idea, actually, Chuey.

2006-03-14 [chuchutrain]: yay :D

2006-03-15 [RiddleRose]: ooh, spiff! i like it!

2006-03-15 [Fuzzysabeast]: Great idea! *gives high five*

2006-03-15 [chuchutrain]: Yeah! *high fives for everyone*

2006-03-17 [Mister Saint]: Everyone, the featured member is currently being deliberated. ^_^ Thanks for your input!

2006-03-17 [chuchutrain]: :D

2006-03-23 [Grey Wanderer]: Ok, I had an idea. You know those books where you pic the path? Well I was thinking it would be fun to do something like that here on writersco, as a colaboration within a small group. It would be interesting to do, and afterward people could come through it just for fun, and maybe add a new path if the one they want isn't there. I'm not sure if Flipside is the best place for this, but other than flipside I don't know any way of letting other people know about it. Help!

2006-03-23 [Mister Saint]: Well, actually, that sounds like a great idea for the upcoming Event. The first event didn't quite go as well as everyone planned it, but I think the problem was less in the execution and more in the preparation. I think it would make an excellent event concept. Wanna stick up a poll about it?

2006-03-23 [Grey Wanderer]: Poll...how do I do that?

2006-03-23 [Mister Saint]: Underneath the section directory put the code <wikipoll> and submit the edit to the page. When you next see the page you will see a couple of blank fields. Fill them in with the right information, it's pretty straightforward. ^^

2006-03-23 [Grey Wanderer]: Ok...trying. Is that what you meant?

2006-03-23 [Mister Saint]: looks fine to me!

2006-03-24 [Grey Wanderer]: Cool! Thanks for teaching me how.

2006-03-24 [Akayume]: cool

2006-03-24 [Mister Saint]: No problem, grey. ^^